"Invest in ! It's going to be big! Do it now!" "But that doesn't make any sense at all?" "Sure it does! Money is your best investment ever! Are you blind? Money is exploding right now!" "Doesn't. Make. Sense" (My brain is hardwired to replace with money. Try it ;)

It's still the fundamental dilemma. How can bitcoin retain value if it is only a store of value, based on PoW? At some point it must become a medium of exchange for the system to keep on working. But it doesn't make any progress in that direction.

And should it make the switch at some time in the future - why should I invest in it now? Hodling, as many do, measn that that moment is pushed far away into the future. It's a fundamental dilemma that none of the blockhain/defi pixie dust can explain or solve IMHO.

> My brain is hardwired to replace #bitcoin with money. Try it
foreign currencies (like the money you use) are a pretty decent form of investment where I live, FWIW. when local currency loses half of its value compared with foreign currencies in sudden episodes several times over one's life, and accumulates a devaluation of between 8 and 10 orders of magnitude over a single decade, investing in "money" doesn't sound such an odd idea.
fortunately most of these devaluations are in a distant past, but there's still enough fluctuation that we have investment funds linked to some foreign currencies, and people who are saving for expenses abroad are often advised to rely on such funds, or to exchange early, as a form of insurance against major devaluations
not that I invest or recommend crypto currencies as investment, mind you. it just doesn't feel weird at all for me to hear about investment in other currencies

@lxo If you are looking for more stability in a Store of Value, Bitcoin doesn't really look like a good candidate IMHO.

true, but that's a different issue. still, if even value-preserving foreign-currency (and mutual funds tracking them) are regarded as investment, why shouldn't speculation with crypto currencies? it can bring about huge returns, and also risk huge losses. sounds like high-risk investment to me. why should it not qualify?

@lxo Because cryptocoins are not legal tender. Currencies are. The fundamentals are completely different. But still Bitcoin and other cryptocoins position themselves as currency when needed. Though they simply don't fulfill the criteria.Which becomes obvious once you replace "bitcoin" with "money" and try to find out if the sentence still makes sense - which was my point. It doesn't.

> Because cryptocoins are not legal tender. Currencies are.

it looks like you start the thread by claiming bitcoin is not investment because it is money, and then, when I show even legal tender can be investment, you claim bitcoin is not investment because it is NOT money (legal tender)?!?
several forms of investment do not involve buying legal tender, so how does that make crypto currencies not-investment? you're coming across as self-contradictory to me

@lxo No. I never said that Bitcoin isn't investment because it is money. I explained how that way of thinking simply doesn't make sense.

well, then, nevermind my initial response to my misunderstanding that that was what you meant. but now I have no clue as to what your point was in the initial post in the thread. it seemed to be that investment in money (be it legal tender, bitcoin, whatever) doesn't make sense, thus isn't investment. where's my understanding faulty?

@lxo Using currency arbitrage to make money is quite OK and normal. I wouldn't call that investment, though. Distributing your money across different currencies might make sense in some regions/markets - but all of this happens with currencies that are legal tender. Bitcoin and other cryptocoins are thus a different category of financial vehicles IMHO. But the Cryptoworld loves to see it as money when it fits, as investment when that better fits. That doesn't make sense to me.

I think I got it, thanks. double-checking by rephrasing with my own words: you're annoyed bitcoin is sometimes presented as money, sometimes as investment, depending on whatever suits the presenter. I guess you're frustrated because that often feels dishonest, even scammy. have I got that right?

@lxo Yes, but it isn't about me. I can see through this and decide for myself it doesn't work in either way for me. That's my personal opinion. I am however worried about people that don't know all these things and think it is a wise investment decision to buy bitcoin, unaware that it's failure to be a medium of exchange or a unit of account will make any long term bets on bitcoin far too risky, again IMHO.

With quantum computing coming slowly but inevitably out of the fog of the future, a bitcoin collapse may very well be inevitable.
That said, gold is only worth what it's worth because people agree it is.
Silver has medical application, but golds only practical use is as a cheap alternative to platinum, and we don't need that much of it.

@jwildeboer I have just started to dive into the bitcoin rabbit hole to see if I the possible advantages can outweigh the disadvantages. I am aware of the energy consumption. Maybe @stevenroose would like to join the discussion? He responded quita elaborately on a screenshot I boosted. See this thread:

@jwildeboer Well money isn't a single thing. Multiple things can be money and those can have different properties. Euros and Bitcoin are both a form of money.
Euros are debased around 5-10% a year in order to cause artificial inflation. Bitcoins aren't.
Euros can only be held by banks with special licenses that will borrow out more money than they have. Bitcoins can be efficiently stored by an individual.
There's more differences. Buying #Bitcoin isn't investing. It's saving.

@stevenroose (fiat) Money, in it's modern understanding, is typically three things. Medium of Exchange, Store of Value and Unit of Account. Bitcoin (and IMHO all other cryptocoins) fails on at least two of them since quite some years. The combination of being a Store of Value and a Unit of Account is what you need to make it a good savings option. But it isn't a reliable Unit of Account. So if you use it for savings, the value will be volatile. If you`re aware and OK with that - fine.

@jwildeboer #Bitcoin has historically been a better store of value than any other currency. Even gold. Sure it's volatile. But its volatility has been declining a lot over time, which is normal as the markets become more mature as they gain liquidity. Many country's national fiat currencies f.e. have been way more volatile than Bitcoin over the last 3 years.
Which other function do you think it fails on?
Lightning network is cheaper than VISA and mainnet is cheaper than international settlement.

@stevenroose As I already said. IMHO as Unit of Acoount it fails and as Medium of Exchange, despite all efforts with Lightning etc it also fails. The incentive to keep Bitcoin alive is IMHO not growing over time.

@jwildeboer I'm curious how you think fiat is a better medium of exchange. You have to literally give metal objects or cotton sheets to the other person. Only licensed banks can transfer actual euros directly from one to another.
Any other "payment mechanism" that we use is based on trusted counterparties and those systems can work with #Bitcoin just as easily. The exact difference being that it's not needed to build such complex (and costly!) social structures for Bitcoin.

@stevenroose "I'm curious how you think fiat is a better medium of exchange" Uhm, because it works? It's how we live our lives? Bitcoin is IMHO always meandering between not being really good at two of the three criteria while being a rather bad implementation of the one that works at that moment. In the beginning it worked as a rather curious and limited medium of exchange, now it is more a store of value but it never was good at being a unit of account. So it is not money IMHO. 1/2

@stevenroose And it is too limited to be a new class of money, again IMHO. The PoW is rightfully criticized ATM and the decentralisation has never really happened, it still is a divided "society" between the "nobility" of miners and users with no real influence on the system itself. In sum I think it is being kept alive more based on imagination as on real world effects. Again, IMHO. 2/2

@jwildeboer Well, I have to say I quite respectfully disagree with that opinion. I hope you spend some time thinking about my responses.
About medium of exchange. You say our current system "just works". Do you think it "works" well when for the vast majority of txs in a store, the merchant pays 3-5% in fee? Say about half the time to one of 2 American companies? Not to mention the fact that those companies can also just refuse to execute his txs. Like f.e. for sex workers and journalists.

@jwildeboer Do you think it works that in order to send money from my account to that of my friend in another EU country, we need authority of around 5 intermediary organizations, that each of them employ hundreds of people in suits that need to get paid salaries? Not even talking about multi-week delays for cross-continent settlement. In many situations it's faster and cheaper to take out cash dollars and fly them in a suitcase to your recipient.

@jwildeboer On the topic of store of value, I already made my point. Our currencies are debased with 5-10% every year. And expect that to increase now with our current crisis. Even if (the central bank's own) consumer price indices only indicate 2% price inflation, that means that we're still missing out on an 8% price deflation. Imagine! Technology actually making it cheaper to produce things, how surprising!

@jwildeboer As a unit of account, #Bitcoin is clearly still not mature enough. But volatility only comes from an immature market. And like I said, many country's national currency has been more volatile than Bitcoin over the last 5 years, while Bitcoin's own volatility is decreasing fast with the market growing.
Compare Bitcoin's market size with that of euros and dollars. It's only at a fraction of that yet. The closer it gets, the more stable it'll get.

@stevenroose @jwildeboer @sl007

Thanks. As I'm still a bitcoin-noob, for the time being I'll just watch from a distance and read along with these interesting discussions :)

@stevenroose @jwildeboer @Erik

Thanks for mentioning, for me it is not about “volatile”, it is about concentration of power and much money in few hands and mainly about climate refugees.

I had commented at the other post in the thread already with

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